{"id":136,"date":"2020-10-01T23:24:00","date_gmt":"2020-10-01T23:24:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/qgdesartistes.fr\/?p=136"},"modified":"2026-06-29T17:11:20","modified_gmt":"2026-06-29T17:11:20","slug":"popay","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/qgdesartistes.fr\/en\/popay\/","title":{"rendered":"Popay"},"content":{"rendered":"

GRAFFITI: A NEW DISPUTE BETWEEN THE ANCIENT AND THE MODERN<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

\n\n\n\n

COURSE<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

How did you discover graffiti?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The first person I ever saw paint graffiti was Psyckoze at the Louvre Pyramid construction site, one Wednesday afternoon. Since we didn't have classes, some friends and I were going to check if there were any graffiti artists there. Back when I started painting, there was still some public doubt about whether it was vandalism or not: this perception changed after the incident at the Louvre-Rivoli station on January 1st.er<\/sup> May 1991, carried out by Oeno, Stem, and Gary. The media seized upon it to turn public opinion against graffiti. From then on, the practice became criminalized, and many were drawn to pure illegality. Some then changed their tags to try to evade the police. However, since I had started early, I was also arrested quickly and realized I couldn't continue like that for very long. I was mainly interested in the artistic aspect: when I tagged a train, it was a rite of passage for me. There was a misunderstanding, because the goal was to paint, not to be chased by the police. My practice therefore developed more in vacant lots, these indeterminate zones. When buildings are abandoned, they remain derelict for a while, and I appreciated these places where time flowed at a different pace, without the sword of Damocles hanging over me. I wasn't looking for a sense of urgency.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

When did you become an artist?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

In the early 90s, an initial wave of graffiti was losing steam without commercial success. So one day, I went to the Balearic Islands, boarding a boat incognito. For me, it was a new experience, like when I played as a child. Dungeons & Dragons<\/em>, Another world in which I had to make do with my abilities and whatever I could find. At the end of the first day there, I was hungry and had no money, only one franc and twenty pesetas. I started drawing a statue that stood in the square. There was a small van selling popcorn, where I couldn't buy anything. Disheartened, I showed them my drawing before leaving it with them. But they told me to wait before bringing me a full bag. On the other side of the square, there was an orange juice vendor, and I wanted to do the same thing with him. Oranges were limited, so he couldn't trade me juice, but when I gave him my drawing, he left me a few coins from his tip. With that popcorn and those extra coins, I realized my savings were increasing, and I understood that making a living from my art had to be my fight. Claiming and accepting to earn money with this space of freedom would in a certain way go against the wage-earning society.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

REFLECTIONS ON PAINTING<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The important thing in your work is the search for expressiveness rather than realism.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I had seen an exhibition called: King Solomon and the Masters of Sight: Art and Medicine in Ethiopia<\/em>, at the National Museum of African and Oceanic Arts in 1992. The title alone had already fascinated me. It presented an ancestral art form made of scrolls unrolled to the size of a sick person. The painter-healer drew supernatural beings with wings on one side, some with feathers and others with skin to differentiate good from evil, and writing on the other, which already constituted a form of layout. The texts were separated by small graphic blocks made up of mini-mazes acting as visual traps. The sick person was unconsciously forced to solve them, as if calling upon their own inner strength to heal themselves. We come back to graffiti again, because these are pieces that address the human body, notably through their size, but also through the fact that the figures punctuating the lettering act as visual traps, drawing the eye in and inviting it to linger on forms that are initially less comprehensible. In this Ethiopian art, I found multiple sources of influence, from crowds of figures all with the same eye, as if connected by the same spirit, to a play on proportion in the representation of the body that we later find in Cubism, even in Tex Avery cartoons or in the aesthetics of B-boys. It is not a realistic representation but a sensory one, which nonetheless remains a truth.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

You also conduct specific research on saturation.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I was influenced by JonOne, Moebius, and Robert Combas on this subject. I read that saturation is the search for limits, for authority, some would say for God. Many people leave canvases partially white, but in my opinion, they should be completely painted, in order to represent an autonomous space, but also to question the necessity of perspective, or to make a nod to decorative art.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

How does the evolution of our relationship with images affect painting?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Gauguin conceived of painting as a form of alchemy, describing it as a technique using two dimensions (width and height) while creating the illusion of a third. Picasso said that one doesn't draw what one sees, but what one knows. We also learn about the world differently thanks to these new aerial views, which have become commonplace thanks to Google Earth and other mapping software. In my painting, the use of axonometric perspective, employed by architects, also allows for a nod to video games, suggesting that the depicted landscape could extend beyond the canvas. In graffiti, the dimension of the work depends on its size and shape; therefore, the approach to composition is different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

DIGITAL ART, OR THE EXPLORATION OF MEDIA<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

How did you first become interested in digital art?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I had worked for a year for a company called Duboi in 1993, one of the pioneers in France in special effects for film and advertising. That's how my name appeared in the credits of The City of Lost Children<\/em> But above all, it gave me a revelation about computer technology. There's something incredible about image manipulation, particularly the disappearance of the originals following the supposed dematerialization and reproducibility of images. This goes against the grain of the art market, which values rarity. For ten years in the early 2000s, I wanted to hone my computer skills, illustrating for various magazines, such as Release<\/em> Or Technikart<\/em>, or creating visuals for my musician friends.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

From the outset, digital technology offered great artistic flexibility, particularly through cost reduction: once the computer was purchased, a single power outlet was all that was needed to access sixteen million colors. There was no longer any need to wonder if the paint tube was full or what the canvases cost. Moreover, the crucial issue of storage was minimized. This medium truly allowed me to avoid artistic limitations despite my financial situation. I then tried to advocate to galleries for numbered prints indefinitely, as this seemed consistent with the technological advancements of digital technology. Indeed, for the first time in the history of art, it was possible to reproduce the original without loss, the computer thus becoming a tool not only for production but also for distribution thanks to the internet. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

However, even if we imagine such a work to be virtual, a physical conditioning, albeit lesser, still remains through the hard drive. I saw a connection there with the process of painting. al fresco<\/em>, directly on the wall, on the easel. When canvas appeared, the artwork became portable, whereas previously it required movement to be seen. It was also a way of desacralizing the permanent wall, in favor of another medium with fewer guarantees of durability, but increasing its dissemination.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Can the digital discovery of a work replace the sensory dimension?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

This question arises, but it opens onto another: what makes a work of art important? Is it the fetishized object itself, or the message it conveys? Everything I've seen of Picasso, I've discovered through books or reproductions. That didn't prevent me from being moved by his message or his aesthetic. It's not the canvas itself that's important, but what he made of it. One may or may not appreciate a computer screen, but the fact that this experience differs from that of a painted canvas doesn't negate its remaining a medium of emotion.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Furthermore, it is worth noting that graffiti marked a return to walls as a reaction to the development of printing, which, long before computers, had miniaturized artwork. The newly acquired mobility of the Impressionists also later led to a reduction in formats compared to those of the previous century.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

You said: <\/strong>\u00ab"The danger has been to think of modernity in terms of the appearance of new tools."\u00bb <\/em><\/strong>In what way is the bomb a medium of transition between artistic eras?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

There is a confusion between technological innovation and aesthetics. During the Impressionist era, the technical advancement represented by the introduction of paint tubes led to an evolution in artistic practice, taking painters out of their studios. This disrupted both aesthetics and subject matter, ultimately giving rise to new styles. However, Picasso later painted new works using canvases and oil paints, which are traditional techniques. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

In its early days, the bomb tool was seen as revolutionary, much like the lightsaber of Star Wars<\/em>. American graffiti offers a fresh perspective: the letters are drawn like never before. This reflects a desire to resist the ongoing standardization of lettering, from typography to computers, and also a fear of losing the physical gesture, while simultaneously reclaiming writing through the influence of ancient cultures. Furthermore, borrowings from comics, such as the use of flat colors, also foreshadow an aesthetic derived from computer-aided imagery, particularly vector techniques. The later use, especially in Europe, of diffusion<\/em>, borrows from the famous sfumato <\/em>From Leonardo da Vinci, through descriptive drawing techniques, particularly engine cutaways created in the 70s and 80s using an airbrush. sfumato <\/em>It demands a certain interpretive power from the viewer, inviting them to see the contours of a figure through the lens of their own canons of beauty, thus increasing the chances of finding a resonance within themselves. This idea is echoed in the Impressionists, who play on the interpretive power necessary to synthesize multiple colored brushstrokes, much like a pixelated screen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Yet, most street artists today don't question an aesthetic vocabulary. Banksy, for example, adopts the style of 1970s punk fanzines: this isn't a graphic reinvention like Cubism was. This reaction to technological advancements may seem retrograde, but paradoxically, it allows for the creation of something new from the old, as Picasso did with African art.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

GRAFFITI, A FOUNDATION FOR NEW IMAGINATIONS<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

A new medium can open up new imaginative possibilities if we know how to use it.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I was listening to an interview with Ash & Jay from the BBC for Get Busy<\/em>, In it, Jay explains that when he painted in Stalingrad, people discovered the graffiti while passing by on the elevated metro, which reversed the classic relationship of a passerby noticing the tag while on the metro. Since the artwork is seen from a distance, the goal isn't technical perfection, but a strong visual impact. For a very long time, through the development of realistic characters, graffiti in France aimed to be demonstrative.\u2019ignorant style <\/em>He then questioned the pursuit of realism. This was already evident in Vel\u00e1zquez's work, where brushstrokes were left visible: the goal is not technical demonstration, but an art that transcends it, the development of an idea. Similarly, a digital work remains a painting, because upon closer inspection, one sees artifacts. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

We often find in your work the idea that abstraction does not exist.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Abstraction emerged at a time when new technical tools, such as microscopes and telescopes, made visible realities previously invisible to the human eye, yet no less real. Technology thus confirmed the existence of the infinitely large and the infinitely small. Franti\u0161ek Kupka's landscapes, for example, seem to be seen through a microscope, while simultaneously being playful, like the colored blocks of children's toys. When Picasso discovered Klimt, he resented his father for never having mentioned him. This raises two questions: why did Picasso find Klimt so incredible, and why had his father never spoken to him about him? Klimt brought decorative art to the forefront by introducing abstract compositions into his draperies, motifs inherited from Orientalism. Both artists were born on the fringes of Europe, the edges of the West. However, it often happens that those who feel distant from a center of being become the most radical, as if to force identification with a culture. Thus, Klimt retained historical and mythological themes inherited from the Greeks and Romans, which he juxtaposed with modern drapery. Conversely, for Picasso, Cubism was a way of never truly detaching himself from figuration, of maintaining a sensual approach that did not, however, contradict the spirit. In my opinion, the only abstraction that exists is the difference between reality and the way we represent it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The history of art would therefore be nothing more than an eternal quarrel between the Ancients and the Moderns, between the partisans of reality and those of expressiveness.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

When Jean-Fran\u00e7ois Millet began painting peasants, it was because he no longer wanted to be completely detached from reality. But those who chose to paint angels undoubtedly did so because that reality was too difficult and it was necessary to distance themselves from it. When the camera appeared, everyone assumed it spelled the death of painting, which suddenly lost its role in preserving the image of individuals. However, Picasso, by demonstrating that painting is more the interpretation of reality than reality itself, proved that painting was only just beginning. Similarly, photography was considered an objective practice before we realized the number of parameters involved\u2014the subject, the choice of pose, the lighting, the development\u2014all of which introduce a bias.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

How is this confrontation reflected in graffiti?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JonOne once claimed to have given up writing altogether. Such a statement reflects the ongoing friction between two different cultures, given that graffiti draws heavily from Eastern cultures and that the return to writing is likely, in reality, a return to calligraphy. Every artistic movement exists both through continuity and reaction. Michelangelo painted in reaction to Leonardo da Vinci, turning away from the sfumato<\/em> to work only with localized contrast, seeking to produce the greatest possible visual impact, with less attention paid to the overall color harmony of the image. Each generation thus finds new ideas to distinguish itself from the more experienced older generation, while allowing contemporaries to feel alive: seeing new things gives the impression of "living in one's time," even if these things are actually influenced by other cultures, or by History.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Rammellzee was instrumental in this aesthetic revolution.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

In my opinion, he is one of the masters of American graffiti. His influence was decisive for many, including Futura 2000, who himself echoed an Afrofuturist trend inherited from Parliament-Funkadelic and George Clinton. He expressed a pivotal idea by showing that each piece of graffiti is, in fact, a war machine. He wanted to emphasize that aesthetics evolve through competition. Graffiti thus become tanks, with arrows as missiles: this is how they first appeared in important pieces, similar to tags, for which they were already used. When introspection was recognized as a creative force, the arrows turned against the sender, becoming interlacing patterns.
<\/p>\n\n\n\n

ON URBAN ART<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

In what way is the street a unique space for creation?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

At the time, the street allowed artists to bypass the obligatory acceptance stage of school or gallery. They painted without worrying about who would like it, which fostered freedom of expression. Who owns public space? Perhaps people are simply enthusiastic about seeing painted walls. Graffiti also arose as a reaction to the city as an advertising space: in this respect, it's no coincidence that it appeared in New York. With a spray can, I can write my name in large letters and exist in reaction to brands. In my opinion, the aesthetics of lettering have not yet been truly accepted or analyzed. Many graffiti artists have abandoned lettering to move towards contemporary art. We need a family tree representing the currents of influence within the writing<\/em>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Do you feel that Street art is an artistic movement?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

From my perspective, it's a movement whose key characteristics are difficult to discern, as it allows for a collision of different styles and vocabularies. The commercial aspect is quite evident when galleries showcase artists labeled "Street Art" without making it possible to distinguish their work from pieces created more than fifty years ago. Many people share this logic, creating things in the street to then justify a visit to a gallery. I find this overrated. Nevertheless, we can observe a growing commercial recognition that confirms this trend. Graffiti remains, however, a foundational artistic movement.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

How has this evolved since the 1980s?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

During the early years of graffiti in Paris, money was taboo; only passion mattered. Few dared to venture into it, like Andr\u00e9, or later, La Force Alphabetik. Street art created a new framework, encouraging a practice that had previously been frowned upon. The TAG exhibition at the Grand Palais in 2009 was a pivotal moment, both for the general public and for institutions. After 2010, the market began to awaken, driven by JonOne, whom we all watched with a mixture of admiration and questioning. He persevered, becoming the driving force of the movement, before being followed by artists like L'Atlas, Tanc, and Sun7. I started selling my canvases and exhibiting again at the height of the street art wave, after much hesitation. All of this led to a resurgence of murals<\/em>, in tenfold proportions with a global presence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

What is your perspective on the ephemeral nature of urban art?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I was recently a bit annoyed with people who take for granted that street art and graffiti are ephemeral. An artist who tags a train doesn't ask for their work to be erased; they accept the condition that it be easily removable to encourage its dissemination. We find here the same compromise that artists make when transitioning from walls to canvas, or from canvas to website. In my opinion, the question to ask is rather one of impact, of the message one wishes to convey from one mind to another. When Moses received the Tablets of the Law, they were made of stone, a material more durable than humankind. But their destruction didn't prevent the message from continuing, which clearly demonstrates the preeminence of the idea. It's paradoxical, moreover, to want to pay more attention to a pebble or a reproduction than to the person you're passing. That said, I don't like being asked to paint a temporary wall, the date of which is known in advance. It's a safe bet that in two hundred years we'll realize the number of works destroyed in this way without any consideration for the craftsmanship involved. This question is also raised by the performance itself. Indeed, the act of creation becomes painting, with the public's memory serving as the canvas. It is their testimony that will allow the work to endure. Here, it is not the object that has value, but the memory it evokes.<\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

LE GRAFFITI, NOUVELLE QUERELLE DES ANCIENS ET DES MODERNES PARCOURS Comment as-tu d\u00e9couvert le Graffiti ? Le premier que j\u2019ai vu peindre un graff de mes yeux \u00e9tait Psyckoze sur le chantier de la pyramide du Louvre, un mercredi apr\u00e8s-midi car, comme nous n\u2019avions pas cours, nous allions voir avec des potes s\u2019il y avait […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[41,29,32,7,25,42,9],"class_list":["post-136","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-abstraction","tag-atelier","tag-figuratif","tag-france","tag-graffiti","tag-numerique","tag-pionniers"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/qgdesartistes.fr\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/136","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/qgdesartistes.fr\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/qgdesartistes.fr\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/qgdesartistes.fr\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/qgdesartistes.fr\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=136"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/qgdesartistes.fr\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/136\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":300,"href":"https:\/\/qgdesartistes.fr\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/136\/revisions\/300"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/qgdesartistes.fr\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=136"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/qgdesartistes.fr\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=136"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/qgdesartistes.fr\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=136"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}